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Earth Children Inconsistencies
If you wish, you can add another inconsistency by emailing me.
Topics:
In-laws can be difficult
Don't mention the bear!
Matigan, apprentice to Jondalar
Zelandoni of the Eleventh Caves
The Mamutoi talking drums
Ranec's carved horse
Levela's mate
Harpoons, gorges and hooks
Deegie's traps
Jonayla/Bokovan age discrepancy
Conjoined Twins
Counting
Synchronisation of Menstruation
Muskrats
Damiana
Maple Sugar
The Cave Bear Tooth
The Bloody Shirt
Creb's Manhood Celebration
Nets of sinew
The Fox Hearth
Latie's brothers
The Mammoth Hide
Red-dyed sinew
Jondalar's tears
Expression of Love in the Clan
Creb's stump
Creb's two eyes
Synchronisation of Menstruation
Wolf's Father
Clan Tears
Mammoth Camp/Valley of Horses Closeness
Mamut's age
Zolena
Mamut and the clan language
Trees
The White Leather Tunic
Discovery of the Firestone
Onagers
Jondalar's Visit to Thonolan's Grave
Jondalar's experience with Flatheads
In-laws can be difficult
Author: Amy McDonald
In part 2 of Land of Painted Caves, Chapter 22, where Ayla is on her tour, Willamar is asked why he is retiring when he is still young and he responds:
'Willamar smiled at the tall blond man. 'And his mate, Ayla, feels like mine, too. Marthona, his mother, is a grandam and has some remarkable young ones, this pretty little one among them. I am grandfa to her,' Willamar said, indicating Jonayla. 'Marthona also has a daughter, who is the child of my hearth. She is of mating age. Marthona would be grandma and I am looking forward to being Grandda to her children. It’s time for me to stop travelling.'
He mentions that he is 'grandfa to her' and is looking forward to 'being grandda.' The problem with this though is that the titles and names for paternal figures are not named until after Ayla is called towards the end of the book. Jonayla should simply (or maybe not so simply) be the daughter of the mate of the son of his mate, much like how Brun refers to Brac after Ayla saves him saying 'the son of the mate of the son of my mate.'
Don't mention the bear!
Author: Amy McDonald
In chapter 22 of Clan of the Cave Bear, when Ayla and the clan arrive at the clan gathering, Uba and Ayla go to see the captive cave bear and the following exchange happens:
'Now I know why clans say their cave bears talk,' Ayla motioned to Uba. 'He’s asking for more; do you have another apple?'
But right after this we're told:
'She had been warned never to motion bear or cave bear or Ursus in his presence. If he was called by his real names, he would remember who he was and know he was not just a member of the clan who raised him. It would make him a wild bear again, void the Bear Ceremony, and ruin the whole reason for the festival.'
Matigan, apprentice to Jondalar
Author: Amy McDonald
I'm just re-listening to the series and have noticed an inconsistency between the 5th and 6th books! In the end of Shelters of Stone once Jondalar has built their new shelter he talks about how Matigan is going to be his apprentice and stay with them; asking if he can live with them full time and Ayla agrees, however in chapter 13 of Painted Caves they speak of Matigan like he didn't just spend the winter with them and move in with them.
Chapter 38 of Shelters says:
'I almost forgot to tell you. I am definitely going to be taking on Matagan as an apprentice for more than this winter. Since he came to visit, I’ve been able to judge, and I think he does have talent and ability with the stone. I had a long talk with his mother and her mate, and Joharran is agreeable.'
'I like Matagan,' Ayla said. 'I'm glad you will be teaching him your craft. You have so much patience, and you are the best flint-knapper of the Ninth Cave, probably of all the Zelandoni.'
Jondalar smiled at her words. One’s mate always made favorable comparisons, he said to himself, but at a deeper level, he thought it might be true. 'Would it be all right if he stays with us all the time?'
'I think I would like that. We have so much room in the main room, we can take part of it to make him a sleeping room,' she said. 'I hope the baby doesn’t disturb him. Jonayla still wakes up at night.' 'Young men tend to be sound sleepers.'
Chapter 13 of Painted caves:
'I talked to him and to his mother and her mate, and some others from their cave. If it's agreeable to Joharran and the Cave – and I can't imagine why anyone would object – he’s going to come and live at the Ninth Cave at the end of summer. I’m going to show him how to knap flint, and see if he has any talent or inclination for it,' Jondalar said. '...Where will Matagan stay? Does he have any family at the Ninth Cave?' Ayla asked. 'No, he doesn't. We haven't decided yet where he should stay.'
'He'll miss his home, especially at first. We have a lot of room, Jondalar; he could stay with us,' Ayla said. 'I was thinking of that, and was going to ask if you’d mind. We’d have to rearrange some things, give him his own sleeping space, but that might be the best place for him. I could work with him, watch what he does, see how much interest he shows. No point in making him work at it if he doesn't like it, but I wouldn't mind having an apprentice,' Jondalar said.
Zelandoni of the Eleventh Cave
Author: Julie Winchester
In SOS, the Eleventh was a youngish gay man who had a partner named Marolan.
On page 721 of LoPC, he is referred-to more than once as 'she'.
The Mamutoi talking drums
Author: Julie Winchester
In TMH, the talking drums were make with mammoth bones that had been marked with paint. They were struck with mallets to make their unique sound. In POP, Danug and Druwez both knew how to make & play the talking drums (in TMH, it was Deegie and Tornec who played them).
On page 649, Danug says that the drums are not hard to make, they use rawhide stretched tightly over a frame. He added that they could be played using a well-balanced stick, but both of them had learned to play using their fingers.
It had me picturing something like single bongo drums… certainly nothing like a mammoth skull!
Ranec's carved horse
Author: Julie Winchester
In TMH, Ranec carved a horse from ivory and gave it to Ayla. Later in the same book, he also gave one oh his bird/Mut carvings, as a pre-mating gift. When she broke things off with him, she returned the bird/Mut carving, but the kept the carved horse.
The carved horse was mentioned in TPoP; Ayla showed it to Madenia, when she was going through her belongings.
However, in SOS, on page 561 of the hardback, Danug gives the carved horse to Ayla… impossible, since she brought it with her. Then on page 562, Danug tells Ayla that Ranec started working on the gift soon after she left with Jondalar.
So, Ranec carved a second rendition of Whinney? Perhaps this one is more of a redundancy, than an inconsistency…
Levela’s Mate
Author: Julie Winchester
In SOS, One of the couples who mated during the same mating ceremony as Ayla and Jondalar were Levela and Jondecam. Levela was a younger sister of Joharran’s mate Proleva, while Jondecam was the son of the Zelandoni of the Second Cave, Elder Hearth. They were mentioned as a couple several times, in the course of SOS and LoPC. Ayla regarded Levela as a close friend.
However, on page 588, Ayla responded to Proleva by saying, 'I’ll go after I eat, but I think I’ll stop off and greet Marsheval and Levela on my way.' Marsheval did participate in the same mating ceremony as both Jondalar and Jondecam, but I believe he mated Tishona. As I recall, they were an older couple who ended up moving back to the Ninth Cave.
Harpoons, gorges and hooks
Author: Dan Allen
In VOH Jondalar uses a harpoon to catch the sturgeon that pulls him upriver. This is very clearly stated. He mentions using a harpoon several times telling the tale in POP. In fact, in POP a harpoon is adapted to the spear-thrower and used successfully to catch a sturgeon.
When telling the tale in chapter 23 of SOS he says that he used a 'hook with bait'.
This is kind of a double inconsistency because every time fishing with a line is mentioned in the series other than this one time it is specifically described as using a gorge, tied in the middle in the hope of sticking one or both points in the fish's mouth or throat when jerked so fishing with a hook doesn't seem to have been invented in the series timeline.
Deegie's traps
Author: Liz Dyer
When Ayla is telling the Zelandoni about how she found Wolf, she says that she was following traps she had set, when it clearly states in TMH that the snares were Deegie's.
Jonayla/Bokovan age discrepancy
Author: Michelle Messner
In chapter 32 of LoPC, Ayla is introduced to Bokovan, Echozar and Joplaya’s son. Dalanar tells her that Bokovan is a little over 3 years old. Ayla and Joplaya were both pregnant when they were mated at the summer meeting in Shelters of Stone. Why is Jonayla so much older than Bokovan if their pregnancies occurred at the same time? There is no mention of Joplaya ever having had another pregnancy.
Conjoined Twins
Author: Michelle Messner
In chapter 9 of LoPC, when Ayla and Zelandoni learn that Danella had conjoined twins, Ayla remembers a similar thing happening to a woman of the Clan. No mention that it was her adopted sister, Uba, that it had happened to.
Counting
Author: Michelle Messner
In chapter 3 of LoPC, Ayla recalls how Creb had taught her to count by placing his fingers on stones. In CoTCB he taught her to count using marks cut on a stick that he covered with his fingers. In the movie with Darryl Hannah, they used stones.
Synchronisation of Menstruation
Author: Mike Williamson
In COTCB, reference is made to the synchronisation of menstruation. This can be traced back to a paper by psychologist Martha McClintock, who was the first scientist to do a study on menstrual synchrony, and reported her findings in Nature in 1971:
McClintock MK (1971). "Menstrual synchrony and suppression". Nature 229 (5282): 244–5.
However other researchers have failed to demonstrate this, and it may be due to a mathematical glitch and coincidence, and may not be supportable. It's akin to the match of birthdays in a small group.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_synchrony
Muskrats
Author: Diana Ramadani
When Jondalar and Ayla are trekking from the Mamutoi meeting back to Jondalar's homeland, when they come to the Great Mother Delta, at least one of the animal species mentioned as being there could not actually have been there: ('But the marshlands also accommodated a surprising number of animals that requires a variety of different environments: roe deer and wild boars in the woods; hares, giant hamsters and giant deer on the fringes, for example. As they rode, they noticed many creatures they hadn't seen for a while and pointed them out to each other: saiga antelope racing past plodding aurochs; a small tabby-striped wildcat stalking a bird and watched by a spotted leopard in a tree; a family of foxes with their kits; a couple of fat badgers; and some unusual polecats with white, yellow and brown marbled coats. They saw otters in the water, and minks, along with their favorite food, muskrats.')
Muskrats are the only species in their genus, and it is indigenous to North America. It has been introduced in Europe, but not until the last hundred years or so.
Damiana
Author: Diana Ramadani
In the Mammoth Hunters, when Ayla and Jondalar go back to her valley before she is adopted by the Mamutoi to pack up her things and collect gifts for her to bring for her adoption, Ayla makes tea for both of them, and includes damiana in her tea.
However, damiana is native to Central America and Southwestern Texas, and the entire family are tropical plants.
It probably wasn't particularly prevalent in the ice age Crimean Peninsula. ;)
Maple Sugar
Author: Mike Williamson
At the end of Clan of the Cave Bear, Ayla gathers up various items, including maple sugar. The sugar maples are American trees. AFAIK, the European maples do not yield enough concentration to boil into syrup or sugar.
Birch syrup is mentioned in Land of Painted Caves, but birch syrup is much harder to boil down without burning, and requires very good temperature control. Possible, but it would be highly valued--it's hard to get even now.
The Cave Bear Tooth
Author: Phil
In Plains Of Passage, Jondalar is supposed to give Guban (injured member of the clan that Ayla and Jondalar help) a tooth from the cave bear that he killed near the start of their journey. The bear that he killed was not referred to as a cave bear at the time of the killing. Certainly Ayla, who had seen cave bears and knew the smell of them, would have mentioned the significance of killing a cave bear. Also, the bear was after their stash of meat held in bag supported by the posts. As we know from The Clan Of The Cave Bear volume, cave bears are vegetarians (p.375). Therefore, the bear could not have been after the meat, and Jondular would not have had a canine tooth of a cave bear as he killed a normal bear and not a cave bear.
The Bloody Shirt
Author: Don
There were two shirts, one on a tree, and one that Jon threw into the water. The part that bothers me is that the shirt floated upstream, against the current of the mighty Sister! The boat is described as coming *downstream* down the raging Sister River to find Jon and his brother, and yet had managed to get the shirt caught on the front of the boat! In other words, the boat was far upstream, Jon threw the soiled shirt into the river, and the shirt then managed to fight its way upstream *against the current* until it snagged on the boat!
Author: AnnDee
Don, the Sharamudoi were at the confluence of the Mother and the Sister, collecting bog myrtle, when Jondalar's shirt (snagged on a branch) came floating along. They sailed, or rowed up-river, past the Zelandonii camp, turned around and were coming back when Jondalar saw them. I can't find the reference right now, but I remember thinking it was an inconsistency the second time I read VOH, then my question was answered.
Author: Don
Surely that means that the shirt floated down the Sister, was picked up by the boat say at the confluence, they saw that it was bloody, then sailed *past* the tent on some errand or other, before sailing back down the river a while later to rescue Thonolan? I find that hard to follow.
In any case, surely Jon would have seen the boat, or heard its occupants at the oars as it went past against the current?
Author: swanline
The tent was not situated directly on the river, so they might not have seen it. Jon would not have seen them either, when he was in the tent taking care of his brother.
Nevertheless, the other tunic was in the tree flapping in the wind, and I think they must have seen that, especially when they were looking for the people needing their help.
Would it be plausible that the Sharamudoi boat "picked up" the branch with the shirt but the Sharamudoi did not notice it until they were further upstream? But then how did they know that the branch had been snagged earlier???
This is really confusing.
If they were downstream of the confluence of Mother and Sister when they noticed the shirt, they would not know from which of the two rivers the shirt had come. In that case, they could have decided to search the Sister first, then, when they did not find anything, turn around and search the Mother. This time, going downstream, they saw Jondalar standing on the riverbank.
Creb's Manhood Celebration
Author: swanline
In the beginning of CotB it is mentioned that Goov had to become a man before he was allowed to attend ceremonies. How could Creb become Mog-Ur if he never had a manhood celebration, then?
Author: Rhiannon
If there is no other explanation, all I can think of is that Creb's calling was too strong (after being "chosen" by Ursus) for the Clan to deny being Mog-ur to him, even though he never became a man.
Nets of sinew
Author: Kachina
I was just reading COTCB when they went to the sea. They were discussing the stuff the net was made of. They didn't use sinew because it did not soften in water. Then when she is sewing she wets the end to get through the thread-puller, then waits for it to dry stiff.
Author: ginavc
I always pictured the fishing net using somewhat thick cord, and someplace in one of the books she describes the consistency of thick sinew as very coarse. In TMH Ayla has to pound the thicker cords to pull loose a strand. Maybe the thicker sections do not let enough water penetrate to soften the whole cord, but the thinner strnds get soft and pliable with water. Also, saliva is not the same as salt water, but i have no idea if that would make a difference.
Author: BlueRoses
Guess what I found? "Like leather, sinew was flexible when wet, and if untreated it stiffened as it dried." VOH HB pg. 325
The Fox Hearth
Author: Clarimonde
The "Fox Hearth." If Wymez is Nezzie's brother, and Nezzie is of the Lion Hearth, and hearth names are passed on through the mother, then why isn't Wymez of the "Lion Hearth?" Don't unmated men keep the hearth of their mother until they mate? It could be that the Aterians, Wymez' mate's people, had similar customs of named hearths, BUT in all the books the Mamutoi are the only group that actually call their hearths by the name of some animal. I think it's a pretty remote chance that Ranec's mother's people had the same customs. Barring that, then Wymez would more properly be of the "Lion Hearth" like his sister unless he remarried. Likewise if Nezzie adopted Ranec, then he would be of the Lion Hearth as well. So what the heck is the Fox Hearth doing there? My personal feeling is that JA knew she was being inconsistent but didn't want to confuse her readers with two "Lion Hearths." The "Fox Hearth" ought properly not to exist for Wymez and Ranec but was pressed into action to save the readers' brains.
Author: Folara
Clarimonde, I think that, like you said, Jean just didn't want two Lion Hearths, but perhaps she did it on purpose. Although a man was supposed to keep his mother's hearth name until he was mated/living with a woman, there would have to be exceptions to the rule. A middle aged bachelor would not be obligated to continue to share a hearth with his female relatives and their family. Compare this to what would happen if two sisters mated and both lived in the same Camp Would they share a hearth? Most likely not. They would probably create a new one out of the blue, like Nezzie and Wymez did, don't you think? I say that this does not qualify for "inconsistency status."
Latie's brothers
Author: Clarimonde
In POP, Jondalar and Ayla are discussing Madenia and her being raped. Jondalar mentions that it's up to the young girl to "show restraint" before her First Rites and Ayla replies, "Like Latie wasn't even supposed to look at her brothers, Mamut explained about that. (POP, pg. 738) To my knowledge, Latie had ONE brother, Danug. Even if Rydag is considered as her brother, Mamut specifically said that since he is still a child, it is safe for Latie to interact with him. I think that wasn't so much an "inconsistency" as a "whoops" that an editor could have caught, because we know Ayla meant "brother and cousin" (Danug and Druwez).
Author: Thalion
About Latie's brothers: Ranec was one of her brothers since he was adopted by Nezzie.
The Mammoth Hide
Author: AnnDee
POP Ch. 38, p. 645 HB
Jondalar and the Losadunai are discussing crossing the glacier. Jondalar says he will take the heavy mammoth hide to keep the rocks that they will build the fire on off the ice.
BUT:
POP Ch. 41, p. 701 HB
At the last minute Ayla throws the mammoth hide on top of the brown coal.
Red-dyed sinew
Author: BlueRoses
Clan of the Cave Bear:
When talking about the bag that holds the sacred roots "No other woman had anything colored the sacred red, although everyone in the clan carried a piece of red ochre in their amulets." Then at Uba's birth "Ebra tied a piece of red-dyed sinew around the umbilical cord" If the clan didn't dye their clothing (Ayla had to learn at Lion Camp) and if no one else owned red where/why is there red-dyed sinew?
Comment:
Author: Rhiannon
Sounds inconsistent, but it's possible that the red dyed sinew was Iza's, and since Iza was the one giving birth, Ebra used it. If the quote is 'No other woman..., then the woman that isn't "other" would be the highest ranked medicine woman, or Iza at the time of Uba's birth. Perhaps the red sinew was only used in the births of the highest ranked medicine woman's line, or perhaps Iza was the "keeper" of the sacred red color and had a few things colored red. I'm inclined to think that the word "other" is key in that sentence. If I had meant to say that there was nothing else in all the Clan's possessions besides the red ochre in amulets, then I would have phrased it that way. Otherwise, I get the idea that Iza may have other possessions that are red, if they are important enough to deserve the color.
Author: BlueRoses
The next sentence about Iza's bag is "It was the holiest relic Iza possessed" I always took that to mean it was the only red thing. I know the men have the red-dyed hunting talisman's in their amulet, but JMA never mentions any other fabric.
I looked at Durc's bith pg. 331 HB CotCB and it says "Iza tied a red-dyed piece of sinew around the newborn's umbilical cord..." So it's not for special births I guess. I've read books based in biblical times etc. where they mention tying red cord at birth. When Iza dies they tie her arms and legs with red-dyed sinew. So I think it has spiritual meaning for coming into either world.
Author: AZ Sue
I don't think it's an inconsistency. Iza's otter skin medicine bag is decribed the first time it is mentioned in COTCB as having "a red-dyed cord of sinew threaded through holes punched around the neck opening". I agree with Rhi, that if the quote is "no other woman", then Iza (or any medicine woman) might have red-dyed items to be used in her medical practice. Since all births were important, the red-dyed sinew was probably used on all babies born to the Clan. I think the reference to the bag being the "holiest relic Iza possessed" refers more to that fact that it holds the sacred root, than it being the only red thing she owned.
Jondalar's tears
Author: Crozie
The Mammoth Hunters, page 420:
"Once outside, he (Jondalar) pulled the hood up against the sharp wind and tied it tight around his face, leaving little more than an opening to see. He pulled on the mittens that dangled from his sleeves by cords, shifted the haversack, and started out walking up the slope. The ice crunched under his feet, and he stumbled in the dim light of the early gray morning, blinded by hot tears, now that he was alone."
Now check out The Mammoth Hunters, page 442, just 22 pages later.
"As long as he could remember, Jondalar had fought for self-control. Other men showed emotion--laughed, or angered, or wept--far more easily than he, but above all, he resisted tears. Since the time he had been sent away and lost his tender credulous youth in a night of crying for the loss of home and family, he had wept only once: in Ayla's arms for the loss of his brother."He had wept only once: in Ayla's arms for the loss of his brother."
What was he doing on page 420, cartwheels?
Comment:
Author: Firewings
There is a difference between just having tears in your eyes and actually uncontrollable crying. There've been plenty of times when Jondalar was fighting back tears, but it's rare that he cries as hard as when he had to leave his mother's cave or when he cried for the loss of Thonolan.
Expression of Love in the Clan
Author: Sharon
Deegie, in "Mammoth Hunters" asks Ayla about the sign for love when she wanted to use it with Braneg.
This is inconsistent with "Clan of the Cave Bear", when the word love was used consistently and often.
For example, Creb clearly signed, in part, "I love Ayla, she is the daughter of the mate I could never have."
And Iza, upon dying, signed, "I have always loved you....loved you best...." There were other parts, but there was no "Subtle way of showing it" as Ayla explained to Deegie.
They were signed words, or perhaps spoken. But they were there.
Author: Michelle
From Valley of Horses:
"Ayla recalled the depth of Jondalar's desolation when he had first comprehended that his brother was dead, and she saw the ache that still lingered. 'Perhaps he's happier, if it's what he wanted. It's difficult to go on living when you lose someone you love so much,' she said gently." -VOH pg. 471
"'Love?' she asked. She wanted to be sure he meant what she hardly dared hope he might mean. 'What does 'love' mean?'"
"Ayla watched him with consternation, pacing back and forth, ranting to himself about love. She had to learn that word.
'Jondalar, what does 'love' mean?' She was serious, and she sounded a trifle annoyed." -VOH pg. 529
Obviously she did know what the word 'love' meant because she used it when she described Thonolan wanting to die when he lost Jetamio. Then she asks Jondalar later what it means.
Comment:
Author: IshiBabe
When Ayla told Jon that the Clan didn't have a word for "love", I think she meant love in that way. She loved Creb and Iza as mother and father, and she told them she loved them. But never once did she ever refer to love between mates. The only love ever mentioned was brotherly, sisterly, motherly, etc., not as far as mates go. So the Clan word for "love" between a man and a woman didn't exist, but the word for "love" between a mother and child did.
Author: Rhiannon
The Clan also showed their love for each other instead of saying it. Women might make sure their mate's tea and breakfast was ready when they woke up, men might take their mate's suggestion of a child's name... it was far more subtle and meaningful than our overusage of the word love.
Author: Firewings
Remember Ayla was still kind of struggling with the Zelandonii language. She knew what love meant in her Clan language, and in her heart, but she did not know Jondalar's word for love. It's like if you go to a different country-- let's say Mexico-- and someone says the Spanish word for love (amor). You know what "love" means, but you don't know what "amor" means. Ayla had an idea of what Jondalar meant because of the way he said it. Remember how he always looks at her with his eyes?
Author: Margaret M. Jordan
'... Do you think Creb will ever love me again, if I'm very, very good?' 'I'm sure he will, Ayla,' Iza replied, patting her gently. She's had that sickness again, the one that makes her eyes water when she thinks Creb doesn't love her... CCB-10
'Ayla, I always loved you best.' ... 'She told me to tell you she loved you, Uba.' CCB-25
'No, Ayla, I didn't stop loving you, I loved you too much.' CCB-28
'Ayla, show me how to say, 'I love you' with signs...' Deegie asked. 'Clan has no sign like that,' Ayla said. ... '...A mother might say, 'You fill me with happiness' to child, Ayla replied. MH-6
Iza told Ayla she (Iza) loved Ayla better than Uba, and Creb admitting that he loved Ayla too much, indicates not only an expression of the concept but showing different degrees. While there were no examples of a direct expression of love between mates, as Deegie was asking, but Ayla used as an example the love between a mother and child, which is not consistent with her experiences as told in The Clan of the Cave Bear.
In the Clan expressions of love, the concept was understood, of course, but how it was 'signed' might not have been as a specific sign, but as symbols that implied it. When writing a novel, one uses the words that have the most dramatic impact. It may not be entirely clear in the words, but in my mind this is not a conflict. Check PLAINS for Ayla's loose translation of the small 'joke' that Yorga makes about Jondalar.
Jean Auel, May 2, 1995
Creb's stump
Author: BlueRoses
"....attacked a defenseless, crippled boy....It was the lad's mother who found him,... She amputated his useless, paralysed arm to the elbow, crushed by the huge creature's enormous strength." CotCB HB pg. 58
"the stump of an arm that had been amputated at the elbow when he was a boy. His grandmother,...had cut off the useless, paralysed limb when it became gangrenous after he was mangled by the cavbear." PoP HB pg. 619
While I may reconcile that the crushed mangled limb became gangrenous later and was removed for both reasons, etc., first it was his mother and then his grandmother who removed his arm?? Which one?
Creb's two eyes
Author: Karen S.
In COTCB on Page 191 HB:
'The next morning Creb's face was swollen and puffy, makeing his one-eyed scarred face more fearsome. His eyes were red from lack of sleep.'
One-eyed to two eyes!! Must have had some powers, to regrow parts of the anatomy, as well as the other Mogur powers!! lol!
Synchronisation of Menstruation
Author: margaret
if there are such things as women being in sync(and I believe there is)..then answer me this..would most of the clan's women be gone at some given time?..that they were doing the 'curse' thing ...how would those men provide food for themselves with no memories?
Comment:
Author: BlueRoses
I never thought about that. I guess the women are still there since they only leave that first time they menstruate. But that means that most of the adult women wouldn't be able to make food for men or clothing, etc. anything used by men for around a week.
Since the clan didn't use the moon to keep track, I wonder if they'd know when it was coming? Can you imagine a hunting party where suddenly all the women can't look at you, prepare your food, etc. ????
That's a big flaw in a society!
The dormitory synchronisation of menstruation is documented in most primates I believe.
Wolf's Father
Author: Princy
In The Mammoth Hunters, Chapter 22 page 435, when Ayla first finds Wolf after having killed his mother there is a section that talks of Wolf's father and how he died: '...after her mate, an old lone wolf drawn to her too-early heat, died in a fight.'
In the Plains of Passage there is totally different explanation to how he died in Chapter 2 page 19, which says:
'Sadly, his stiff old bones were not able to resist another harsh winter on the periglacial steppes. He did not last long into the cold season. It was a devastating loss for the black female...'
One book says he died in a fight while the other says he died because he could not handle the harsh weather.
Comment:
Author: Suzie
I think the two are related, he was clearly an old dog, who could have fought off his attacker if he hadn't been weakened by the harsh winter.
Winter makes stiff joints worse.
Clan Tears
Author: She-wolf
From Clan of the Cave Bear:
Page 51 hardback......Brun always used to think of Creb as his brother when he was young and fighting for self-control necessary to males of the clan, especially to one destined to be leader. His older sibling had fought his own battle, against pain and ridicule because he couldn't hunt, and he seemed to know when Brun was close to tears.
Page 105 hardback......."Iza!" Creb called, concerned. "Come here! There's something wrong with Ayla's eyes." The eyes of Clan people watered only when something got in them or if they had colds or suffered from eye disease. He had never seen eyes overflowing with tears of unhappiness.
Comment:
Author: Firewings
I think what it meant was that Brun was close to the Clan's equivalent of tears. He couldn't cry, but his emotions would be close to it. Also, remember when Creb performed his last ceremony it said, "Ayla was not the only one who cried; the dry-eyed clan wept with their hearts."
Mammoth Camp/Valley of Horses Closeness
Author: Jenn
I thought from reading VOH that Ayla had thoroughly explored the area to the East of her valley, sometimes taking her tent, and spending days. I think that I find it hard to believe that she could have been so close to the Mammoth camp and not have stumbled over some sign of the area being inhabited by them.
Comment:
Jenn, I think you're spot on. There are a number of references to how well she explored the Eastern side of the Valley, and within twenty five miles of the valley is the major river that the Mammoth Camp is on, the Dnepr. It would have been a source of water and food for her, and the logical thing would be to follow its course upstream and down, which would inevitably lead to discovering the Mammoth camp. I'm not sure that she would have seen large numbers of signs of habitation apart from the camp itself, but in three years of hunting and gathering, mostly in the same area that the Mammoth camp hunted, she would have been sure to have either come into contact with the inhabitants themselves, or found evidence of their camps in favoured locations while they were on extended hunting trips such as those referred to in the bison hunt by the Lion Camp. Although the camp itself was across the river, the mamutoi used bowl boats to cross rivers, and would not have neglected good hunting grounds just over an easily (though admittedly large) crossable river. But see AnnDee's perceptive comment below:
Mammoth Camp/Valley of Horses Closeness
Author: AnnDee
I think Auel originally planned the maps differently. Trace (or photocopy) the map area. Write the names of the Camps inside the Mamutoi Territory, then cut out the territory and move it west until it touches the Carpathian Mountains. That indentation in the territory is where Ayla's valley was, and the Camps fall into a pattern that makes more sense (except that Amber Camp has to move back to where it was, because it should be near Kyiv). In addition, it solves the problem of what the heck Brecci was doing over by the Great Mother River, which is way out of Mamutoi territory. I used to think Auel had changed the placement of the camps to reflect the archaeological finds they represented. But I finally found information givng me a better idea of where those finds actually were, and they're much farther south.
Mamut's age
Author: AnnDee
This is one of those nit-picking discrepancies we've found. It's irreconcilable.
Try this: on strips of lined binder paper, write Ayla's ages from 5 to 18, Iza's ages up to what, 27? Can't remember off hand how old she was when she died. A strip for Creb until he was 40. Then, figure a strip for Mamut (start backwards from Deegie at 17).
Line up the strips so Creb died three years before Ayla met the Mamutoi, Iza 2 years before that, etc.
Even if every female between Mamut and Deegie mated at 12, there is no way he could both remember Creb and Brun, and be looking forward to his fifth generation. And then figure out how old Iza's mother and grandmother would/could have been when Creb, Brun, and Iza were born (Grandma Uba went to walk with the spirits soon after Iza was born). Figure at least 3 years between Creb and Brun, unless their mother got pregnant sooner because some other woman was nursing Creb (mentioned in CCB).
Personally, I think Auel should not have had Mamut remember Creb.
Zolena
Author: J In Seattle
Jon talks about Zolena in the end of the Valley of Horses, then recounts the tale again toward the middle of the Mammoth Hunters. He tells it the second time as though it were the first. I believe it even mentions in the passage that he is reluctant to recount the tale to Ayla.
Mamut and the clan language
Author: Droog
Mamut had lived a while together with the clan, even hunted with them, which means his stay was long enough for his arm to heal. So, he must have picked up at least a little of their "language," at least the concept of it. But why did he never try some signs at Rydag before Ayla came? Or at least encourage him to make some if he forgot how they were performed?
Comment:
This is a fair enough comment, and has been discussed at length on the board. It's not an inconsistency in the same realm as the onagers inconsistency, but it is one which has bothered many people. More an inconsistency of personality than a straight mistake.
Don
Trees
Author: Sandra
Clan of the Cave Bear
Somewhere near the beginning of the book, Jean states that the Clan have no word for tree, just each kind of tree. Then, around pg. 191 (PB), Iza uses the word "tree" to Ayla.
The White Leather Tunic
Author: Linda Fenn
Mammoth Hunters: "Ayla was sewing the finishing beadwork onto the white leather tunic when she heard a commotion from the Fox Hearth."
Plains of Passage: "Except for the ermine tails, there were no decorations no embroidered patterns or designs, no shells or beads, but it needed none. Decorations would have detracted. In its simplicity, the pure whiteness of the color made it stunning"
Discovery of the Firestone
Author: kim
In chapter four of POP when Ayla and Jondalar are camping at the planned campsite of some other people, Ayla builds a fire using her firestone and Jean retells the abridged story of how Ayla discovered the technique. But she includes the statement "and she understood the implications quickly when striking the iron pyrite and flint together created a long-lived spark that burned her leg". Jean must have forgotten that she did not include that part in the valley of horses--the spark just fell into a conveniently placed pile of fire making tinder because her fire had gone out and once ayla finished her hand axe she was going to gather wood, and start a new fire. There was never a burn involved.
Onagers
Author: Audrey
In POP, about six pages into chapter six (hardback) one paragraph starts "Ayla had not seen onagers before,......"
VOH chapter 13 about 16 pages in, "Once the pitfall was prepared, Ayla whistled for Whinney and circled wide to get behind a herd of onagers." It's on page 287 of the British edition of the paperback. So Ayla must have seen onagers before she saw them in POP, unless she had her eyes shut the whole time she hunted them!
Onagers
Author: Margaret M. Jordan
Steppe horses seldom travelled so far south, but asses and onagers--the half-ass intermediate between horses and asses--roamed the open plains of the peninsula... CCB-7
They passed massive herds of bison, and giant deer with huge palmate antlers, horses, onagers, and asses;... CCB-22
She saw herds of deer--reindeer, red deer, and enormous antlered deer; compact steppe horses, asses, and onagers, which resembled both; ... VOH-1
Once the pitfall was prepared, Ayla whistled for Whinney and circled wide to get behind a herd of onagers. She couldn't bring herself to hunt horses again, and even the onager made her uncomfortable. VOH-13
Then she poured water into a cooking basket from the large onager-stomach waterbag that was hanging on a post, and she put some cooking stones in the fire to heat. VOH-28
Ayla had not seen onagers before, and with her thoughts turned inward, she wasn't paying attention as they proceeded down the slope. She thought the animals she saw in the distance were horses. But when they got closer she began to notice differences. ... 'Are those horses?' she asked. 'Not exactly. They're like horses, the way elk are like reindeer, or moose are like megaceroses. They're called onagers,' Jondalar explained. 'I wonder why I haven't seen them before?' POP-6
Obviously Ayla had seen Onagers before, especially having killed one while hunting with Baby.
'I was already aware of the onager mistake -- but by the time I discovered it, it was too late to fix.'
Jean Auel, May 2, 1995
Author: Margaret M. Jordan
Jondalar's Visit to Thonolan's Grave
Author: Margaret M. Jordan
As she walked to a rockslide at the back, Jondalar followed her. ... He poured the red ochre into his hand and broadcast it on the rocks and gravel, then spread a second handful. ... 'I am grateful for you for burying him, and asking the Clan totems to help him.' VOH-29
Jondalar stood at the foot of the slope wishing there was something he could do to acknowledge this burial place of his brother. Perhaps Doni had already found him, since She called him back to Her so soon, but he knew Zelandoni would try to find this resting place of Thonolan's spirit and guide his if she could. But how could he tell her where this place was? He couldn't even have found it himself.
MH-15 Only about 4 months elapsed after the first visit to the blind canyon to the second, but Jondalar couldn't have found it himself? On re-reading both episodes, the impressions the first time were that Jondalar was relieved to know Ayla had asked the Clan totems to help guide Thonolan's spirit, and the use of red ochre in burial ceremonies was shown to be common for both the Clan and the Others. The impressions from the second episode were that Jondalar was uneasy about Clan totems and he had no idea of what to do at the burial site. He had not only forgotten how to get there, but he had also forgotten he had spread red ochre over the area.
I don't think there is a conflict over Jondalar's visits to Thonolan's grave site. He wasn't familiar with the region to find the place again, and he wasn't at all convinced that Clan totems, or his sprinkling red ochre, were enough. Jean Auel, May 2, 1995
Author: Margaret M. Jordan
Jondalar's experience with Flatheads
Standing in front of him, within arm's reach, was a child, with two large brown eyes gazing at him from under the shadow of overhanging brow ridges. ... Jondalar had not seen a flathead female this close before. He turned his head toward her. She was older, perhaps the young one's dam, he thought. VOH-15
Jondalar was less subtle. He had never been so close to Clan people ... and he was fascinated. POP-40
Since he was within an arm's reach in VOH, he did have an opportunity to see Clan people up close before meeting Guban and Yorga.